Making DEI Data Pretty, and Making Food Even Prettier: An Interview

By: Dr. Chrissy Davis, Ph.D

I sat down with Anisha Upponi, M.A., Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Insights & Analytics Manager at Experian, and also one of my favorite people of all time, to pick her brain on why racial equity is so important in corporate America. Let’s set the stage to learn about Anisha’s journey to DEI work… and head back to a rainy day in 2016 in our college town of Denton, Texas…

Chrissy: “Okay, the memory I have that’s, like, vivid as day to me. We met one day at 940’s [aka best brunch spot and cocktail bar ever] because I’d gotten off work. And it was raining. We were drinking Moscow Mules, and it was a perfect Denton moment. I remember you’d come from that conference [University of North Texas’s Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Conference] and you were very sparkly about it all. …that memory so stands out to me, but I know it was probably not just that conference and that moment I have in my mind. When you look back, what started the DEI work for you?”

Anisha: “Yeah, you know I do think that experience solidified it in a big way. I still feel so energized when I think about the way the work was being talked about at that conference… A lot of what they were talking about back then is what I consider should just be the dialogue that’s happening around DEI in the workplace. I remember them talking about the concept of belonging. We didn’t start talking about belonging in the corporate setting until recently, even just talking about gender pronouns, gender equity, identity, all of those things. I remember those things standing out to me. The way the speakers were speaking about it was like, if you aren’t talking about it in this way, what are you doing?”

Chrissy [laughs]: “Either hop on, or hop off!”

Anisha: “Yes!! It was a really bold way to be hosting a speaker session. Usually it’s meant to be inclusive, like, if you’re intermediate or advanced levels, you can be here! And this time they were just like, if you’re not getting this, this is probably not a session for you. [laughs]. That [UNT] conference was so professionally reminiscent for me. It made me feel so bright-eyed and bushy-tailed to go to that conference. It’s almost unfathomable to believe I’ve been working in this space two years on top of my other corporate experience. Thinking I could attend as an experienced professional now is so trippy.”

Chrissy: “What makes that so trippy?”

Anisha: “It’s still a level of imposter syndrome. Part of it is not having as much experience. The other side of it is, the concept of, when you’re in a field like this, you have to constantly be learning. You have to be learning as society evolves. A part of it makes me feel humble in a way I need to be and want to continue to be. I think it keeps the humility around, the fact that you can’t be an expert in DEI, in a sense. It is going to constantly evolve and as we get more emotionally intelligent as a society and how that interacts in the workplace, that conversation is going to evolve. Even what we are talking about now, in 5 years this conversation may be completely different.”

Chrissy [gushing]: “Ugh, I love it! Everything you just said, yes yes yes! In counseling psychology they talk about cultural humility. They made a shift a few years ago even, I’d say in 2016 they probably would have still been saying ‘cultural competence’ and now they say ‘cultural humility.’”

Anisha [emphatically]: “Yeah!”

Chrissy: “Like, you are never going to have clinicians that are fully competent in this. And it sounds like that idea transcends to like, how you and maybe other professionals look at DEI work too?”

Anisha: “Yes. I think so. I think there is this… I almost want to say, corporatization of DEI. A lot of professionals would probably say what I would say [about cultural humility]. But a lot of professionals would see that as a skill set. You see that through the evolution of DEI certificates or degrees…”

Chrissy [laughs]: “The capitalism part of it.”

Anisha: “Yes! Yeah. And… [laughs] I think that, having participated in DEI classes in IO psych and at work… it made me realize it is barely scraping the surface. Which has been a good learning lesson for me, I remember going into my program thinking I want to seek a degree in DEI. And very quickly realizing that’s not how I’m going to get there.”

I then asked Anisha some more questions about how to be successful within DEI. She discussed implementation of cultural humility, while also simultaneously learning the ways corporate-speak can help leaders hear the needs of DEI departments and initiatives. She then explained some sassy, smart strategies of getting leadership to see the value in DEI work.

Anisha: The integration of working it into the business, it is a really smart way to go about it. I think we have a privilege in our industry because it is about focusing on programs providing financial education to people who have been historically underserved. I would say, like 70% of our work now is all of our programs and products related to going into communities, where we’re going into Black and Hispanic communities specifically across the U.S. that we know are marginalized and have everything working against them to have any sort of financial history. So like, some of our products even give them a boost, like products that give small actions to students that can take to start building their credit history through student loans, for example.”

Chrissy: “Oh cool.”

Anisha: “Yeah, so I think we have an advantage just in the industry that we're in because it is so built into the products that we're trying to get out to people. And I think even other corporations I have worked with, there was still not much incentive. There was a little bit in the sense that, that was a very business-to-business model. So it was engaging with other businesses who would take on our work. And so we could measure diversity from an external perspective there a bit... But like, if we were working with freaking, like [name your favorite homophobic fast food restaurant], they don't care. You know what I mean?”

We then chatted more about specific products and events her company has coordinated to aide historically marginalized populations. She also described to me what it was like working at a global company, meaning different countries have different versions of affirmative action, legal standards, and governing boards in terms of human rights work. I found myself curious about what she and her team do with the data they collect from their employees.

Chrissy: “Could you talk a little bit about, like, what are some of the difficulties you all get on like collecting data in the first place and like, just get people to buy-in on surveys?”

Anisha: “Yeah, for sure, I think at the base of it is, I mean, it's essentially a trust exercise. So the main project that I had last year was hosting this self ID campaign. where we were inviting employees to share as much or as little as they wanted. We asked sexual orientation, gender identity, race/ethnicity, veteran status, disability status. And those are really sensitive topics. This first year is really educating people on the fact that we aren't going to use the data against them and that all the data is very confidentially protected and only available to a very small HR population. So a lot of it is that education. But a lot of the distrust is very understandable.”

Anisha then explained many of the nuances of using this information responsibly, and promoting psychological safety for employees to trust the employer as they gather this type of information. She also described how as a global company, in certain countries just because she can legally gather information on an employee, due to cultural differences and standards she and her team may need to be savvy about when to not gather information on an employee for their own safety, as well. 

We then discussed in the States how this translates to certain populations mistrusting larger systems when there is a history of deep racial inequity for decades, for the Black community in particular. Anisha explained how more transparency from corporations about what they are doing with employee diversity information can lead to more accurate information about who their employees are. She discussed how resistance from leaders with privileged identities to fill out survey data can lead to less participation, and the more a company participates transparently, the more buy-in can be created for employees and leaders. I nerded out with Anisha for a while about how to use survey data for social justice, then moved on to talking about her training.

Chrissy: If you were talking to a Master’s student who is getting their degree in IO, what would you want to tell them?

Anisha: I would almost equate it to building more EQ [emotional intelligence] in the workplace.  It's about the health of an organization that ultimately impacts the health of the employee experience. And that’s cool as it evolves through the dialogue of our society when it’s more about balance, a holistic routine, and work playing into that. It’d be interesting to know what early IO looked like, we didn’t really dive into that at school. …ultimately an employee nowadays is much more empowered. At least that’s what I’d like to believe. I know that’s not true for everyone but…”

Chrissy: “Yeah, of course. But I do think the Great Resignation is a sign of that.”

Anisha: “Sure.”

Chrissy: “You know, a lot of times when I think of this in a different field of psychology, I find myself in that corporate trap of like, what’s in it for them? How is the company benefiting from knowing this information? Are they only avoiding turnover and recruiting good talent? But I love for you, your takeaway is, it comes down to the employee. The human beings! I think that’s really cool. I could see that being very rewarding, especially after working HR in a completely different industry for so long.”

Anisha went on to describe how her former work in HR can tend to be more focused more on company protection, when she had entered that field with the expectation HR would be more like DEI or IO work. Whereas now, she gets to focus on inclusion of diverse people and the employee experience.

Anisha: “It really feels like I’m on the other side now. And the more I move up the more influence I have over that too. Most of the dialogue now is, how is it going to help our people.”

I gush about how this makes me so excited that as a South Asian Millennial woman, her rising influence is paving the way for many POC women’s voices to be raised to the top. She very kindly and humbly agrees with me. We nerd out some more about the nuances of her field after the pandemic, and she describes the joy of collecting data and putting numbers into a beautiful chart to highlight inequities in order to serve justice and raise the voices, salaries, and sheer number of POCs in the workplace equitably. I pointed out that I could see where her job could at times be depressing or discouraging, to run numbers and see people of color in less leadership roles or less positions, period. She said as an internal consultant, she loves to put the data in a presentable way to leaders so action can be taken, even if the current numbers are discouraging, because she is the deliverer of the facts that can create change. Empowering stuff.

Chrissy: “Will you share what you like geeking out about in your personal life? Because as you were saying all of that about data, I was thinking about how you love cooking and plating and that sort of stuff. It’s so cool you said for your job you like the visual representation of it all, and there are so many things about your life that show you like aesthetics in general. Like your tablescape for Friendsgiving, for example.”

Anisha: “Yes! Absolutely! That’s so true… that’s a commonality I’ve never truly drawn because I like to do a lot of work to make work separate. Cooking is so much of what I enjoy. The monotony of the prep steps, if I use that as a metaphor for data, there is a lot of similarity. But I love the grocery store. I love chopping an onion.”

Chrissy: “You are a great chopper.”

Anisha: “It’s so much fun! It’s one of those things, it’s not to say I’m not ever critical of myself when it comes to cooking, but if I mess up, I can just do it again. I think my perfectionism doesn’t show up as much. But it shows up with the aesthetic then, to make the plate look nice. It’s ok if I don’t chop it perfectly because I can make it look nice later. That’s one of the spaces in life that I give myself a lot of grace to grow.”

I then reminisce of the bacon-wrapped dates Anisha makes for the holidays each year, and times I’ve seen the sparkle in her eye when she sips what she knows is an excellently-made Old Fashioned. I appreciate how she makes food, and data, so pretty.  Because I adore and admire Anisha so much, and we have a habit of staying on the phone until someone should probably go to bed, I make myself ask her one last question about what she’d like to say to the people of the ASWR Blog.

Anisha: “So much of my interest in DEI in early college was because of my experiences of growing up in very White towns and being raised by immigrants, and professionally having corporate experiences where I was a minority. Then, being in a place like Denton that was so diverse, it was such a lesson what was important to me at my core values. I hope as our society grows and changes there are less people who have the same experience growing up as I did. 

It’s really inspiring to see more South Asian representation in obviously the corporate spaces, but just in general. I love skin care, and beauty, and seeing how many brands are not only South Asian-owned, but focused on hyper pigmentation or dark circles, you know the problems we have. That kind of stuff just holistically, when we look at DEI and how it’s implemented in our lives, that gives me a lot of hope that younger kids are growing up with so much more exposure, acceptance, and resources. 

If those kids seek out a degree or career in corporate America, it’s their baseline understanding they’re going to be treated well and as professionally as others. …I think hopefully that will continue to evolve. If I can do anything to help that personally or professionally, I hope to.”

Thank you, Anisha, for sharing your voice with us!

About:
Dr. Chrissy Davis, Ph.D (she/her) is psychotherapist for And Still We Rise. She is under the supervision of Dr. Natasha Holmes. Learn more about Chrissy here.